Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd (RCCL) has just terminated its vendor agreement with YTB Travel Network... See story here.
(John Fogg also posted on it here)
YTB Travel CEO J. Kim Sorensen tells his reps, "We are estimating $13,000,000 in sales for 2007 with RCCL, who recently chose to terminate our vendor contract..."
That's a lot of money to turn your back on, even for RCCL.
Reader and NMC member Judy, a YTB rep, says that she's doing all kinds of training herself, and knows many others who are learning how to become useful referring travel agents. But, "as usual" she says, it's the few who give everyone else a bad name.
One of the common pitches among YTB reps on my calls has been that "you can travel for free", or that you "get paid to travel."
But those perks were designed for people who DO travel a lot, like pilots, stewardesses and high mileage flyers. That's who deserves the perks, isn't it? They're not intended for people who don't really travel or who don't bring regular business to the travel industry.
However some people in YTB who rarely travel, will do something stupid in the midst of travelers and other real agents:
"This guy reports that he was on a FAM trip and one lady on the bus to the ship was talking to everyone about how she had gotten her cruise FREE. Then she whips out a stack of YTB cards and gives them to everyone on the bus suggesting they call her if they want to find out how they can cruise free too."Easy to see how this behavior cheapens the perks offered to people who really spend a lot of their time traveling or booking travel for the various lines. Even $13 million in business from YTB reps this year didn't change their RCCL's mind. YTB got terminated. That means NONE of their reps can book travel with RCCL anymore.
And the regular travel agents are agitating for the other cruise lines to dump YTB (and other "travel card mills") as well.
Our Judy reports that YTB is doing some fabulous travel training and that she loves getting it. So do thousands of other reps. (The link above shows YTB's response to being cut out of the RCCL business.)
Question. How can we discourage these loud MLM travel recruiters from offering "free travel" and "they pay us to travel" slogans (for $450) and ruining the legitimate mlm travel business for tens of thousands of others who travel themselves, AND who know better?
They have made life extremely difficult for YTB. May YTB terminate them all. At once.
Too harsh? What say you?
Results so far here.
---
Time to learn to recruit like an authentic person instead of pretend?
The Skeptical Market Recruiter CDs here? Readers of this post: Get your 30% discount. Use discount code: honest.
22 comments :
Having from a background in travel, as a travel agent in the mid 80's and then in marketing for the airlines for 10 years following, I can see where the cruise and other business would be tired of bad behaviour.
I know airline and other travel industry employees can lose their benefits for being reported for bad behaviour while traveling for free or reduced rates, and even fired in drastic cases.
I'm not sure if the company has the names of those who have stirred up trouble, but I have always slightly questioned the ability (and legitimacy) of joining an MLM and then using the travel benefits of other companies.
I'm not saying that they weren't legitimate deals, but coming from that industry, it seemed almost too good to be true.
IT'a always sad when any negative press comes to light about our industry (MLM) because that makes the road a little tougher for us all.
And, this may well get lots of press because these cruiselines are big companies.
Let's all remember that we are in this together and hype and bad behavior don't belong here!
EXPECT Success!
Jackie Ulmer
MLM Training BLOG
You can never fully control the retarded behavior of some associates because many people want to take the easy road to success without proper training.It is a shame but a fact of life. Most mlm programs are too inexpensive to join and should be increased to weed out the "tire kickers." Maybe then you will get more responsible reps that are hungry to succeed and learn the ropes? Just my 2 cents....
Andrew Murphy
I'm sure it depends on which side of the fence you are sitting on as to whether you agree or disagree.
If the benefits as the article says is mainly for themselves,this does hurt those in the travel industry.
I must say I would personally feel better using a trained travel agent rather than a referring agent who might not be there by the time I actually needed them.
I have also heard stories of people calling their travel agent while on their trips and receiving a lot of help in a time of need. Would this level of service be possible with a referring agent?
I believe the woman's actions were either inexperienced or inconsiderate for other travel professionals and I don't blame the cruise lines for their decision.
Brenda Bunney
http://MLMSuccessBunney.com
brendab@brightok.net
It is a shame that the few mess it up for those who are really trying to run a YTB travel business. I too own a YTB website.
I myself take advantage of all the vendor trainings when they come to my area so I can learn more about the travel products.
YTB is not a card mill and is doing all it can to not be identified as one. I book travel especially group cruises. Carnival Cruise lines spend alot of time training us weekly and monthly. If RCCL is so concerned they too can take time out and train us on our weekly travel training calls.
We have won 3 years straight the highest award Carnival presents because of our sales with them...hint hint hint...maybe it is because they dedicate a business development manager to train us about their product.
Things will be changing soon at YTB to prevent those who just want to be apart of the company just for the perks.
The travel industry is evolving and has already evolved from brick and mortar to click and order with the internet. I don't hear them making a big noise about the online agencies taking business from them. I understand the perks the business offers and I too would be highly upset if someone came to me the wrong way. I never solicit to travel agents. Just doesn't feel right and we have some travel agents who have YTB site too and love being apart of YTB; maybe because they are getting more of the commission.
The peas in the pod need to stop making things bad for others who are trying to truly run a business and if you do use your credentials then do it with decency.
Hi Kim,
Haven't visited in awhile but I came across this post and as a YTB RTA who books a lot of travel for others and for myself I'd like to comment.
My heart says, 'ouch, thats harsh' to your question of terminating Reps who make these kinds of promises but I also know that it shouldn't be allowed to continue.
I've blogged about it a time or two in the past. Working with YTB isn't a free ride to FAM Trips, benefits and its certainly not paycations like many people like to boast.
YTB is a legitimate way to make money selling travel, and you have the privilege of recruiting others to do business with you, by your lead.
We may not be travel agents in the traditional sense but the travel industry itself deserves our respect.
People who make these kinds of boasts are dishonoring YTB and disrespecting both industries.
It has to stop.
Is such behavior against YTB policy? If not, then you can't really terminate a rep for doing it.
Walter Reade (from Wisconsin)
www.NetworkingTechTips.com
Walter asked if this is against YTB policy. As many of you know, I evaluate policies of companies all the time.
YTB is one of the worst. YTB claims in it's "Bill of Rights" that it will never terminate and IMR. It's specifically called the IMR Bill of Rights.
In order to make any significant income with YTB, you need to be an RTA. That means $49.95/mo for your monthly licensing fee in addition to the $500 fee to become a travel agent. An RTA can sell travel, but can NOT sell Travel Businesses (recruit people). An IMR can sell Travel Businesses (recruit people) but can not sell travel.
BUT...when you want to join as an RTA, you have to agree to a whole DIFFERENT set of Policies & Procedures that says the RTA or YTB can terminate the agreement at any time.
It's there in black and white under #14 of the RTA agreement.
Cancellation. Either party may cancel this agreement at any time by written notice to the other party
That means that yes - YTB can, at any time, terminate any RTA or any reason.
Sad, but true. What's in your policies?
Roxanne Green
There's a reason for the saying..."One bad apple spoils the whole basket." This is unfortunately not an isolated incident in our industry. Today it's YTB that gets the bad wrap. Who's next?
Ilka Flood
www.JustDoItWithBooks.com
I think the company should take a look at the training that they are providing. Make sure that the reps are aware of the damage their actions can cause. YTB obviously found out but other travel companies can use this as a wake up!
Dustin
www.abetterprogram.com
Dustin,
My thoughts exactly! All REPS and/or RTA's should be trained and required to go through training as far as booking cruises. Not the certification class which doesn't teach travel training but hype about how much money the Director's are making...teach a man to fish yada yada yada...
No site to promote here...just comment.
Holly
I feel for those who are doing the 'right thing' with YTB. It is a shame when some do wrong and the rest pay the price. I was with YTB for a while and know some of the top earners. I never built the biz because I had other friends that were travel agents and explained why they thought what they were doing was wrong. I tried to justify what YTB was/is doing, but never could. I heard stories from legitimate travel agents of how YTB reps would get 'comped' because they had a card proving they were travel agents. An establishment 'comps' someone expecting them to go back to their 'travel company' and tell other agents how great the vacation was and they then recommend it to customers(Company 'comping' benefits). The establishment then gets additional business from that, making the 'comp' worth it. Instead it seems as though this is what is happening and why I can see them getting heat in the Travel Industry... Pay around $500 + $$$ more for training... get a travel card saying you are a Travel Agent, get discounts/comps... go back and tell your friends they can pay the same... get a card and get the advantages of discounts/comps like Travel Agents do. Where does the Company doing the 'comping' really benefit? I think Royal Caribean figured this out. It seams there is probably more taking advantage of this than there is benefiting the Companies doing the discounting/comping.
Several of the top money earners from YTB made thier names in Excel, which is where we first met. YTB should be given all credit for pioneering MLM and Travel coming together. Many have tried, most have failed. It is a shame that a few people that are bringing on the 'heat' could ruin it for so many good people. One thing is for sure, YTB has laid the foundation for others to enter the MLM/Travel arena to "Build A Better Mouse Trap". I think that it will be exciting to see what developes in the future because of the 'blood and sweat' that Loyd and Scott Tommer along with Ron Head and others have given for this industry. I do wish them luck.
Just my opinion.
PS
I just figured out who's website this is! I was sent the link and didn't put two and two together. I highly recommend Kim's tapes/cds to all! I a top earner with a MLM Co and we have used them on a regular basis ever since we first hear them in Excel. A special thanks to Kim for all her hard work and leading by example! I never thought I would refer to a woman as a 'Stud' but SHE IS!
OK so ytb doe some large $$s with the cruise industry. They also do a larger $ amount with the mlm side bringing new members(not travel agents) on board. If someone is selling travel it is important for them to know what they are selling.
But the question should be:
Should someone not selling travel have the ability to take fams?
If you are selling an mlm membership to a travel program why should another company (a travel supplier) want to pay for the perks?
If you are just referring someone to a travel agent, this does not make you a travel agent.
If you are selling travel why would you want only 40%(+/-) of your commission (when you are not getting a salary)?
There are several hosting companies that give a much larger commission than 60%. so I guess the big question is how much commission do you get for a new member?
Some people do really well selling mlms and have bought into a few myself, but selling mlms is not for me. but selling health food does not make nutritionalist, or pointing out a cruise line does not make you a travel agent.
This reply is in response to Roxanne Green's commnts above:
For someone who says they review policies of companies all the time, I am surprised by your misrepresentation and misunderstanding of the terms of the YTB Agreements as I'll show below.
In addition, I’m not even sure what your point is when you say YTB is the worst. The worst at what? Also, it’s not clear what your actual point is in comparing the RTA Terms with the Rep Terms.
I am an RTA with YTB and it offers two businesses opportunities: 1) You can become an RTA (sell travel); 2) you can become an Independent Marketing Rep - Rep (sell travel stores) or YOU CAN DO BOTH which is probably what 99% of the people do.
I will respond to each of your points below.
You say: YTB is one of the worst. YTB claims in it's "Bill of Rights" that it will never terminate and IMR. It's specifically called the IMR Bill of Rights.
Response: Your statement is incorrect. Nowhere in the Bill of Rights does it say it will never terminate an IMR. What it actually says is that it can terminate an IMR for cause as follows: “No present or future Rep of YourTravelBiz.com may be divested of the foregoing right to receive PowerTeam and Dream Team commissions, 50% commission match, bonuses and overrides except upon the voluntary termination of their Rep status or their involuntary termination as an Independent Marketing Representative for cause and pursuant to the procedures of YourTravelBiz.com in connection with the involuntary termination of a Rep status for cause."
Your comment: In order to make any significant income with YTB, you need to be an RTA. That means $49.95/mo for your monthly licensing fee in addition to the $500 fee to become a travel agent. An RTA can sell travel, but can NOT sell Travel Businesses (recruit people). An IMR can sell Travel Businesses (recruit people) but can not sell travel. BUT...when you want to join as an RTA, you have to agree to a whole DIFFERENT set of Policies & Procedures that says the RTA or YTB can terminate the agreement at any time. It's there in black and white under #14 of the RTA agreement. Cancellation. Either party may cancel this agreement at any time by written notice to the other party. That means that yes - YTB can, at any time, terminate any RTA or any reason.
Response: Once again your statement is incorrect. YTB cannot cancel the agreement at any time for any reason. However, #14 (Cancellation) of the RTA Agreement actually says that an RTA may cancel this agreement at any time by written or email notice to YTBN.
The only way that YTB can cancel the agreement is if an RTA fails to comply with the terms of the Agreement. Specifically, item #6 of the RTA Agreement states that “if an RTA shall fail to comply with any of the terms of the Agreement, YTBN may immediately suspend or terminate this agreement upon email or other written notice to the RTA”. This certainly does not give them carte blanch to cancel the agreement as you’ve indicated.
Therefore, before you go badmouthing a company's policies and procedures, you really should conduct due diligence and report the facts correctly.
Based on the article, this seems more like a bunch of Travel Agents getting "ticked" at the Network Marketers who are taking a portion of their business.
Are all YTB reps honest with their marketing?
Of course not, but I have yet to find a company that can make that claim.
I do know two honest YTB reps, they are bloggers on my YTB Blog:
http://mlmblog.typepad.com/ytb_travel_blog/
Dear Anonymous,
I stand corrected. I have two copies of the RTA agreement - one from last year and one from 9/17/07.
The one from last year says:
13 Cancellation. Either party may cancel this agreement at any time by written notice to the other party.
The one from 9/17/07 (just one month ago) says:
14 Cancellation. Either party may cancel this agreement at any time by written notice to the other party
(They moved it to #14 from #13)
The one from today says:
14. Cancellation: RTA may cancel this agreement at any time by written or email notice to YTBTN.
I do check on a regular (every 2-3 months) basis the policies of companies whose reps I am working with. I did not realize that within a month, they would change it again. However, if they have made this many changes within a year, who is to say that they won't change it again.
To all YTB reps out there - were you notifiefd of all of the changes in the policies within the past year?
You should keep your eye on them because they change on a frequent basis and when you agreed to them, you agreed to these changes.
BUT - when the terminated reps that are spoken about previously joined the company - the agreement said YTB could terminate them at any time. Therefore, my original answer to Walter's question is correct and I have the policies from just one month ago to prove that. I'm sure YTB does also.
I don't say anything I can't back up and when I'm incorrect, I will be the first one to admit it. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Have a great day!!
Roxanne Green
Roxanne - In your original post you said "YTB claims in it's "Bill of Rights" that it will never terminate and IMR. It's specifically called the IMR Bill of Rights."
The Bill of Rights was put into place to protect the residual commissions due to a Rep. The intent is to protect people from what has happened in many, many MLM companies when they get bought out or change the comp plan.
The intent is not to guarantee that someone won't be terminated for cause. Just like any business, you have the right to resign your position. And they have the right to fire you. You may disagree and can sue or appeal or whatever, but you can't be forced to stay with a company (any company - military possibly excluded) and you can't force a company to keep you on if you blatently violate company policy.
The Bill of Rights specifically states:
5. No present or future Independent Marketing Representative of YourTravelBiz.com may
be divested of the foregoing right to receive residual commissions except upon the
voluntary termination of their Independent Marketing Representative status, or their
involuntary termination as a Independent Marketing Representative for cause and
pursuant to the procedures of YourTravelBiz.com in connection with the involuntary
termination of Independent Marketing Representative status for cause.
Hopefully you can appreciate this minor clarification, being that you are so closely involved.
Gayle Wheeler
Lovely. Yes, Ilka, we seem to be in the barrel this week. And a few of you seem quite gleeful about too. Interesting.
Let me get this straight. Current figures indicate sales in 2007 for Royal Caribbean will be approx. $13M. They have supported us with personnel at our trade shows and travel training calls. In June/2007 Travel Weekly listed us as #35 in their annual "Power List", a ranking of top travel agencies by sales volume for the year 2006 ($226.1M). In tracking leisure sales only, YTB came in at #11. Given current projections, YTB's travel sales for 2007 will be around $550M, which will move us up the list quite a bit.
And yet we are supposed to be a card mill? Who exactly do they think is selling all that travel?
I don't normally push RCCL, because I think they are overpriced (Princess offers better everything for half the price.) However, the GROUP I sent on a RCCL cruise for the parents 50th Anniv. wanted that line, and were quite pleased with me and their vacation.
Brenda (BBunney) wanted to know: "I have also heard stories of people calling their travel agent while on their trips and receiving a lot of help in a time of need. Would this level of service be possible with a referring agent?"
Just as much service as you would get if you booked on Expedia, Orbitz, Travelocity, etc. Each one provides phone numbers to call regarding your booking for a certain product. And THAT is our market. The 80 million people who are calling the internet their travel agent. Not the people who want to pay extra by going through a traditional travel agency.
I think there was much pressure from the brick and mortor travel agencies, who I happen to know HATE internet sellers. Add in the actual card mills who are damaging the landscape. Then factor in the fact that Carnival happens to have a DSM with an office at YTB Headquarters. Hmmm.
Clearly, vendors must take a little responsibility here and ask for not only credentials, but for production requirements as well. All easy to verify and police. That gets rid of the leeches and gives the benefits to those actually doing the selling, which is who it was all designed for in the first place.
Did you know that anyone can hang a shingle out that says "Travel Agent"? There are several "host agencies" (not mlm) who will take anyone wanting to be an agent with them. One of them, a large traditional agency) just sent a flyer that their agents get xyz, plus attend ongoing training sessions, FAM trips and conventions. Just like YTB! So they are "real" and we aren't? Sorry folks, that isn't really fair. Just because YTB had the idea to try not to offend the travel agent community by calling us *referring* travel agents, now lots of folks think we don't deserve the same benefits.
Should the blabbers/recruiters be terminated?
Well, some of that hype came from pretty close to the top, and it has been going on for some time now. I think that YTB could have done a better job of ensuring that people adhere to the code of ethics that we are supposed to observe.
For those of you who care to know, (doubtful) you might want to read YTB's stance and how they are working to correct this, among other things, within our company as well as the industry in general. Some of that can be found here:
http://www.ytbi.com/investor/pressreleases.asp
And while I could go on and on about many of the half-truths stated here, some of which have been corrected, I would like to ask a question of my own.
Where exactly is the hype, lie or false promise in telling a prospect that they MAY be able to travel for free? The way you present it is key, for sure. But there are numerous examples, and they don't require underhanded tactics either.
Scenario: As a consumer,if I organize a family reunion and decide we should cruise and I get it all organized and call up Carnival and tell them I want to set this up for us I can. If I get enough family members to go somebody gets to go free. (Standard policy for any group.) Why shouldn't it be me for doing all the organizing?
Now, I hear about YTB and I find out that I could earn a commission from every one of those bookings and still go for free, and do everything exactly the same way I did it, plus one or two extra steps for a little bookkeeping.
(Oops, darn it, there I go selling travel again, just like they warned us in card mill school never to do.)
Guess what - true story heard many times. This is another one of the attractions to our business model. There are people out there already doing this stuff and not getting paid or rewarded. Happens in lots of small office buildings too.
For those of us who wanted a little something different than hawking lotions and potions, this is quite irritating, so now I'm a little grumpy. If our thing isn't your thing, that's okay, I understand. But please don't bash my thing and then expect me to be respectful of you and your thing. I thought we came here to learn new methods and for support and encouragement, not bash the mlm loser of the week. While I don't condone the practices of those who are unprofessional in the field, there are many more of us who are working this as a real business.
Gayle Wheeler
Travel Consultant
YTB Travel Network
www.SweetDreamsTravel.com
I've been in YTB now about 3 months. It's not about one bad apple spoiling it. It's about a
real threat to the industry on top of the 80 million who already booked travel directly through sites last year like expedia and travelocity. Travel like real estate agents is not brain surgery. Let's face it. YTB is about to join the top 20 or even higher in the travel gravy train,
the conventional industry is looking for a scape-goat. Instead
of cleaning up their own acts they
attack another industry.
It happened in the insurance industry when AL Williams started
really hurting (by taking the business) that industry. Today Al Williams is called PrimeAmerica and owned by Citi-Bank. Anyone heard of Citi-Bank?
http://RobertsResorts.Net
Wow...a lot of passion going back and forth here. I couldn't help but want to add my 2 cents. Having spent 25 years in the travel industry I voted that this rep should be terminated. An act such as that IS grounds for termination at one of the top airlines I spent so many years with.
It is sad to see what one bad apple does to the rest and I have sincere heart felt empathy for those who still carry a torch that is for them, their passion. Travel is out side the box for a great deal of MLM professionals and I have to give you credit for making a stand.
I stand firm on my belief that the one who caused the uproar with RCCL should be terminated and I wish those who are still selling travel with YTB much success.
Another YTB RTA and rep here, glad to see we're discussing this, and really appreciate all that Gayle and others have said. Unlike the card mills, since the beginning of 2007 YTB has required that RTAs in CA earn their credential and the referring travel agent ID card by meeting a retail sales requirement first, and this can not be our own travel, it must be sold to actual retail customers.
In other words, when we purchase a travel business and site we can sell travel, but we don't get the perks, benefits and discounts (or card) until we've sold $1,500 worth of travel. We must requalify EVERY YEAR!
This has worked so well (YTB is growing almost twice as fast in CA as it is in any other area of the country) that the company decided to implement this policy nationwide starting 1/1/08. And, they voluntarily made this decision long before this recent "situation" with RCCL.
Like most mlm companies YTB has a big contest every year, and this year half of the winners will be those who sell the most travel. Those folks who focus on travel sales can win even if they don't choose to build a sales organization at all, by doing what Kim K. is famous for endorsing - building a customer base and selling our product.
An RTA can earn the benefits (including life and health insurance paid for by the company) given to Directors in YTB simply based on personal, retail travel sales. In what other mlm company can a person reach the top simply based on their personal retail product sales? (These announcements were all made months ago.)
As has been mentioned above, YTB does a staggering amount of business with Carnival Cruise Lines, and we have to earn the privilige of taking Carnival fam cruises. This is not a new policy; it has been around a long time in YTB. We've worked hard to distance ourselves from the card mills and yet, just like folks in a nutritional company who feel their juice is better than what someone can buy at Wal-Mart, the public doesn't always recognize and appreciate the difference.
I have a lot more to say, including comments on what John Milton Fogg and Kim have said about travel and mlm in the same bed, so I'll be back soon.
I think that YTB needs to train reps better as to what not to sy and why. If they understand why they should not do what causes these problems they will act appropriately.
Nobody needs to be terminated for not understanding something.
teach um.
The issue is that while YTB on the surface will say do not market like that--it is just that type of marketing that will allow them to remain in business recruiting new people each month.
What kind of pitch is it if you tell them it is a 10% industry and perks are not available to you till you invest a lot more money and oh by the way you need to actually be responsible for selling at least $50,000 in travel just to get a perk or two.
THe agents are ticked off, as they should be, and the MLMers are also not too happy. THe supliers are cutting them off and I think it is a new ballgame here. I also would tread with caution.
Here is a blog that is talking about it.
http://notravelmlms.blogspot.com/
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